Mindset Coaching with Jess Cameron | Proactive Podcast Episode #136

On this episode of the Proactive Podcast, Chris Hogan sits down with Mindset Coach Jess Cameron to discuss mindfulness, purpose, and being proactive.

Video Transcript:

- [Announcer] Welcome to the Proactive Podcast brought to you by MeMedia.

- Good day. Chris Hogan coming to you from the MeMedia studio, for episode 136 of the Proactive Podcast. And today I have with me, Jess Cameron. Thank you for coming, Jess.

- Welcome.

- Jess is a reputable coach and speaker on mindset and relationship dynamics.

- Correct.

- Could you explain to us in layman's what that means and maybe some topics that you love to talk about?

- No worries. Well, thanks for having me, for one. And yeah, mindset and relationship coaching is my passion. I was a organisational mindset coach for quite a number of years. I don't know if anyone or any of your listeners have watched "Billions" the TV show "Billions."

- Not me.

- Highly recommend. There is a lady in that, Wendy Rhoades, and I had a, I actually had a few employers be like, I wanna Wendy, I need a Wendy. And that was something that I was doing for quite a large sales company for a while. So basically they would send their staff, their business owners and directors, managers to me to fix a problem that no one else could fix. So they lovingly referred to me as the witch doctor. At that stage I had sort of my own space where if it wasn't a skill set issue, it was a mindset issue. And if that wasn't able to be figured out by anybody else, then they would come see me. So I did that for a long time. So it was a mindset and performance coach doing that. And then I went out on my own about two and a half years ago now just to be able to have my own clients and relationship dynamics to me, I believed that the quality of our relationships determines the quality of our life. Something that I've always been able to intuitively understand quite well. And so that was sort of my passion as well. So I do both of them.

- Okay. So what are some of those issues? Our audience is predominantly business owners or those that want to become a business owner, so startups. What are some of those issues that people are battling, so business owners, in terms of mindset?

- Well, I feel like one of the things that most people like come straight to mind is procrastination. I talked about this a little bit in our call and it's this feeling or this understanding that there's a big, hairy issue that I can't seem to overcome and so I need an accountability coach just to be on my back all of the time because I'm procrastinating. And the way that I look at that is we're dealing with the symptoms rather than actually dealing with the core issue. So lazy people don't complain about procrastinating, lazy people enjoy doing nothing. They don't come to somebody and be like, I have an issue here, not doing something. Can you please help me? And so procrastination is normally always a stress management tool. We haven't learned any other ways to manage our stress other than avoidance or escapism. Shutting down, compartmentalising, closing off. And so one of the things that I'll look at is, okay, procrastination is not the issue. Procrastination is the symptom of the issue. So let's have a look at why you may be procrastinating in a particular area. It's normally always a particular area. It's not usually just procrastinating anything. And you think about it in the sense that if somebody is inspired to do something, they don't need an accountability coach. They're doing it. They don't need motivation. Motivation is something that we need when we don't want to do the thing that we're trying to do. Maybe we're out of alignment or maybe we have fears around what it is that we're trying to do. So I'll go in and I'll have a look at the fears. I'll go in and have a look at what is actually going on in the particular area that you're procrastinating in. That is something that I think business owners, including myself, struggle with. And so removing that, I guess that belief that it's just some sort of character flaw or some sort of personality issue that we procrastinate and just looking at it, like there's a block there, there's an obstacle there, there's a fear there and you are implementing the strategy of escapism to deal with it or to not deal with it. That's one topic.

- Yeah, yeah. For sure. Procrastination has definitely been something that I have battled with. I find that it's often a certain task that maybe I'm not entirely aligned with. So something you said there where I may feel like I'm not good at that. I don't enjoy it or whatever that is. So oftentimes it'll be an admin task or something like that. And then there's also the distraction point. So my procrastination will go, oh, well, let's look at social media. Let's pick up the phone and let's scroll through the socials. Let's get a dope mean hit. And if I don't get a dope mean hit and that doesn't actually help. So it's actually, for me, it's actually distractions that I guess, exacerbate my procrastination. I've learned to overcome that. It's just, I think busy business owners that are solving meaningful problems for their clients don't have time to procrastinate. Yes, okay, social media is my Achilles heel. And so I have to let my team basically do that as much as possible. But when you're actually got so many problems to solve for your clients and you are super busy doing that, then there's actually, that's the catalyst for solving that procrastination problem. That's my way of thinking.

- Yes. Was purpose. So being purpose driven sounds like what you're saying there.

- Yes. I love that word. I wrote a book called "Building Brands on Purpose" So yes. Love that. So there's something that I find is extremely important in order to not procrastinate or remove that from my day and as well as distractions. And that is to not engage in social media at all during the day. It's only a nighttime activity if I have time or if I want to. And the other thing is just setting up your day so that you might check your calendar in the morning, knowing what you're doing, but getting onto those, I'm all about movement, cause movement's definitely an important part of our mindset. Cold showers, exercise.

- Yeah, I wish I was the kind of woman that would have cold showers. If someone turns the tap on while I'm in the shower, I'm like, oh, we have an issue. I'll get there, Chris. I'm gonna be a cold shower person one day.

- Yeah, you gotta, you gotta. It's amazing, we'll get to that in a minute. So, I mean, is that something that you help people set up in their life, and not everybody's a morning person, so that's fine. How do you work with people? Is it holistic? Like, do we talk about, oh, what's your daily activities before work look like?

- Absolutely. I love that you asked this question because I believe everything has to be holistic. And that is part of, I see it's part of the problem in the personal development world. It's kind of like, okay, here's a book on high performance habits and it gets a little bit one shoe fits all and we don't operate like that. Nobody operates like that. And the way that I coach is very tailored. I used to try and be very structured until I realised I'm getting in the way here. I'm coming in with my agenda, I'm coming in with what I think is best for this person, because it was what was best for me. And that was stopping the flow of the session and kind of creating a barrier between me and who I'm speaking to, rather than how do you operate? Like you said, not everybody's a morning person. I personally am a night owl. And so I would like to be more of a morning person, but I do my best work at night. Whereas some people do their best work in the morning. So it's like, it's not making any particular way right or wrong. It's looking at that person that you're speaking to. That makes sense. And again, being able to understand, is this person more task driven or is this person purpose driven? Which I think a lot of us, again, in the personal development world, it's like, okay, here's all the high performance habits and I need to do every single one of them every single day, of every week of the year. And we also don't operate like that. We wouldn't want to do a high performance hit class every single morning, because there are periods where your body needs to rest and rejuvenate. It's the same sort of principle. It's not everything suits all of the time. So being able to be more holistic, more flexible as well when you're operating with yourself too, because if you set a structure for yourself that it's designed for someone else essentially, and it's not particularly suited to you, now you're trying to force yourself, excuse me, into a system and a structure that doesn't work for you and wonder what's wrong with you, why you can't do it.

- Yeah. A hundred percent. Just pull that mic down a little bit. Just use this arm. Yeah. Perfect. Yeah. Thanks.

- You can cut out my coughs.

- We will, we will, we will cut that. 100% I think that there is methodologies that I think can apply principles if you like. And they're really good things that we do need to, I guess, fit this movement or meditation or journaling or whatever that is, into our schedule somewhere. But it doesn't always have to be in the morning. Now there's scientific research that says yes, morning people are more productive people and things like that. But yeah, I think nutrition also had to find its way there, especially with I think a massive focus on science. That's science, it must be right. Well, it's not one shoe fits all for nutrition. And finally we are starting to realise that. So I think this is really great that you work with the individual. Does personality profiling come into it all at all?

- Yeah. So I feel like in, well, personality profiling more so sounds like, sometimes it sounds a bit intimidating. Someone sitting here profiling me and trying to put me into a box. I think it's more so just like, you know that quote, listen to understand, don't listen to reply, same sort of thing. When we're meeting people, be able to be a bit more malleable and adaptable to who it is that you're talking to. I feel like that is one of, personally, one of my skills. I'm very certain in who I am. I know who I am and I'm very versatile and very adaptable. Like I know if I'm talking to someone who's slightly more direct, they don't like the fluff. And even though I'm a fluffy person, I will give less fluff to be able to know how to speak in a way that they can hear. And I think a lot of people just wanna like shout and speak in whatever way that they like and just hope the message lands. And the message will land to certain people that resonate and relate to you. But you are also missing a lot of people who that message could reach if you are more mindful of how do they need to hear? And I believe that is a skill in communication. It's not just how to speak. It's how to speak in a way that somebody can actually hear and receive the message.

- Great. One of the number one goals or the number one, I guess, problems that most people want you to solve for them is basically being more productive. Is that pretty popular?

- It is one of them in the sense that people will, like I said, people will always come with the symptom and because that's what we recognise. That's our big red flags. It's like justice is my problem. And like we said before, being able to dig a little bit further down and realise that is only a problem because of X, Y, and Z, because maybe you're not aligned with your purpose. Like we mentioned, maybe there are fears there. Those sorts of things I think is what people start to realise. Oh, wow, what I've thought is the problem, what I've been working on for sometimes years is not actually the problem. It's like, we're pruning the plant rather than pull it out from the roots. And that is what I've seen in people. When you get the roots, when you actually see what is the root cause, change is rapid, results are rapid, because you're not working on something that is not essentially what the problem is.

- Yeah. So one of the topics I wanted to talk to you about was getting out of our mind too. I've got teenage daughters and I myself have struggled with depression. There's a story about that, which most people have read my book, well, everybody who's read my book will know it, but those that haven't, I won't delve into. But I think getting out of your mind is really important. And oh, a mind actually gets in the way. And it's really annoying, it's really annoying especially when you are looking to, I think, make progress on a problem that you've got, not particularly the problems we've just talked about, but a problem in business. You need to move past it, you need to solve that problem and be able to move on. Or sometimes an opportunity comes our way and we get caught up in our mind. So first of all, getting out of our own way, I guess, is a way to put it. Is that something that you help people do as well?

- Yeah. One of the things that I say is I'm the mindset coach that helps you get out of the mind. And I believe that mindset essential, but also what happens if your mind is your prison warden, what do you do then? What do you do if your mindset or your mind is not actually helping you achieve the goals that you have? Because the whole purpose of the mind and I'm simplifying is to keep you safe, to keep you alive, to keep you away from threat, to keep you comfortable. And so it creates this perfect little comfort zone, prison cage, but it's comfortable. And it says, why the hell are you trying to get out of this? We've put in all of this effort to make this safe space for you. And now here you are just trying to trot out of the comfort zone and we're gonna try and pull you back and we're gonna use whatever strategies we know work, self doubt, self-deprecation, distraction, procrastination, whatever strategy we know is work, we are going to employ that. And then people are like taught in society, mind over matter. Meaning mind is the number one, put all of your eggs in that basket. If your body is telling you something, don't listen to it, mind over matter. If your soul is telling you something, don't listen to it, mind over matter. We put all of our eggs in that basket, and then we dunno why we're screwed all the time. We dunno why it takes us so long to achieve our goal, which is like, because you have three powerful instruments, mind, body, soul, mind, body, spirit. And you're just using one. You're just conditioned to believe that one is the best way. And if there are any kind of mental health issues as well, then what do you do? If you have self sabotages in your subconscious mind, then what do you do? And so, again, back to your question before with about a holistic approach, it's like learning how to use more than one tool at your disposal, and also really being able to understand your mind's purpose and how that will work against you in certain cases. Does that make sense?

- Mm hmm. And I have overcome huge amounts of weight that I've built up on my body and solved that. Lost 20 kilos long time ago now.

- You look great.

- Thanks. And that was all through nutrition. So that, what 11 years now. I think that journey has taught me that, oh, actually our gut is so important, not only for our nutrition, but actually for our mind, for processes and decision making and risk taking. So I really wanna theme this podcast today, going with your gut. Can we talk about that for a minute? Like, because going with your gut requires you to understand your own emotions. And how do we know what the right emotion is, I think when we go with our gut.

- Yeah, this is so interesting because we're also taught not to trust our emotions. We're taught that logic and rationality and practicality, and they're all systems of the mind, by the way, all functions of the mind, analysing, and reasoning and logical thinking. Again, we are taught that that is more powerful than emotions. And women certainly get a bad rap for being emotional beings. And in the workplace, it'd be like, leave your emotions at home, leave your feelings at home. Men absolutely fall into the category where it's like, you are not allowed in society to be emotional beings. You need to be logical and rational beings. And again, everybody's like, why are we so unhappy? Why are we so overweight? Why are we so not in our purpose and our passion and we have all of these issues? Well, is what we are taught incorrect. Is our actual guidance system, our internal guidance system to our purpose, our passion, which means fulfilment and meaning in life, our emotions, our feelings. There are certain emotions that our mind brings on. So for example, if we're sitting there and we're thinking horrible thoughts about ourself and riddled with self-doubt, we're gonna feel shitty. We're gonna feel that way. And that is not necessarily, I guess, something that we want to follow, but it is absolutely still an essential piece of guidance. It's like, okay, why am I feeling so crappy? Perhaps my soul is telling me that what my brain is thinking is not correct, is not truth. And so I believe that all emotions, coming from the gut, all emotions are our answers, are our guidance. And to kind of bury them or don't bring them to work, or don't bring them into conversations, we're losing this key integral piece to how we can live fulfilled lives.

- Yeah. I was one of those guys that got told, you're very emotional, stop being so emotional. And funnily enough, in marketing, being emotional is actually super important because empathy, as it turns out is crazy important so that you can understand your market.

- A hundred percent.

- It can be a double edged sword though if I've learnt to not let my empathetic side become too exposed. For example, someone's telling me horrible story, or if I'm seeing a horrible story happen, I have to put up those blockages because let it-

- Protect your energy.

- Protector. Yeah. Or boundary and go, there it is, that's enough. I get it. I don't have to feel your pain to understand it. I don't have to feel the full extent of your pain to be able to understand it. And that's, I think been a huge shift for me, it's older, wiser, learned that. So empathy is a massive thing. But let's go back to the feelings in the gut. So let's say for example, we wanna achieve our goals and we see an opportunity and we go, right, that's something I've gotta do. I've just gotta do that. And then we don't. My gut told me you gotta do that, but my mind got in the way. I understand you have a story, tell about going with your gut.

- Many. This is, yeah, I think in, where I really started to experiment with this, I've always been a very, I've always been strong mentally, but I've also always been very intuitive. And so I've followed my gut at a lot of times in my life. And I wanted to play around with it, I think it was 2018. It was like everyone's setting their new year's resolutions and their goals. And I was like right. Instead of my massive long list of goals, I just wanna do one that will stretch me. And I was like, what would it look like? I didn't have any children. I didn't really have any huge responsibility. Obviously I had my career, but I was like, nothing's gonna be that bad. I'm not gonna destroy my life by trying this out. So I was like, okay, 2018 comes around. I'm like this whole year, I want to experiment with following my gut on every single decision, especially when my mind gets in the way, especially my mind's like, no, Jess, that's not a good decision, that's not wise, that's not practical. Especially in those moments, I wanna go with my gut and just see. I just wanna see what it's gonna look like. And then at the end of that year, well, throughout the whole year, but when I look back on the year, that was, it was like rocket ship, more happened, more opportunities occurred, more doors opened in that year than in the last 10. And that to me was when it became, okay, well, move from, this is a nice concept to, no, this is truth for me, I am now convicted in this. And obviously why it is something that I coach a lot, because I know the power from experience in following your gut. For whatever reason, there is a part of you that can see more than your mind can. And that is logical, it's not spiritual woo, woo stuff. When you think about it, how many times Chris, have you ever had like a feeling or prompting, like you said before, and you didn't follow through with it, everything turned to shit. And then later you turn back and think, oh, I knew that, I knew I shouldn't have done that, or I knew I should have done this. Well, what part of you knew that? Your mind didn't cause it told you to go the other way. So there is logically, somehow another part of you, I will call it the soul or the spirit, that knows more, that can see a bigger picture. And the mind gets in the way, because the mind is limited. It only sees what it sees. It only knows what it knows. It only knows what it's been told, what it's observed. So it is very restricted. And that's why I personally believe the decision maker should be the soul or the gut, however you wanna term it. The implementer is the mind. That's where all the minds, gifts and abilities are. It can implement like a boss, but it is not great at making decisions because that's not essentially what it's set up to do. The soul is a part of us that knows where to go and we can fight against it and go down topsy turvy roads. Or we trust it, we cultivate that trust and see what happens.

- Yeah. A hundred percent. So fear has been something that, I wouldn't say that I've battled with, but nearly going outta business in the GFC. And then when I came back from following another path and ignored MeMedia, I came back to a broken business then. And so there's an element of fear around, well I dunno if I can grow this thing. Whereas pre that when I was first into starting the agency and going full tilt into it, I was like, go, go, go, go, go. And I felt like I was hiring a person a month and buying a computer and a desk a month, and just go on . In 2007, that journey happened, that year was amazing. GFC hit in 2008, 2009. So I felt like, yeah, be a little bit more careful next time, Chris. And so I had actually somewhat ignored my gut and let my brain do too much of the... So I've developed a methodology that helps people work through those entrepreneurial seizures that I have.

- I love that. Yeah.

- So we all love chasing the shiny thing and sometimes it is a good idea and sometimes it's not. So yeah, my gut says, go with that. And the proactive methodology is a nine box grid and all the rest of it. And basically putting that down in front of people, they can just go, right, what's the purpose? What research have I done? What's the opportunity? Proactive. What's the audience? Content. What content am I gonna create? Where am I gonna turn it on? How much money am I gonna spend on advertising? How am I gonna actually validate this? And how will it evolve? Proactive. That's the implementer. I try not to allow that to basically stop me from making progress and building that momentum. But I find that it is a great way for people to go. If you can blast through that and go, I haven't done the research yet. That's normally what stops everyone, they don't do the research. So, but I've got a group of people that I can ask. I'm passionate about this. This is a fantastic idea. I'm gonna get on the blower and start asking questions. And here we are today, I saw an opportunity with Pink Flamingo, good friends of mine, and they are opening their doors to private event organisers Event planners and conferences and birthdays, you name it. So you can actually hire out the whole place for your party or conference. So it is the sickest place on earth.

- It is epic.

- And I absolutely say handle my heart, that it is the most amazing looking stage in Australia. It is so Vegas, like I can't believe it. And the way that the seating is cabaret style, it's gorgeous. And I absolutely watch people on that stage going, oh, I love you, and I love the fact that you were on that stage, and I wanna be on that stage one day. Can't dance and hang from a rope like you, but damn, do I wanna be on that stage? And so when they opened that opportunity up, I said, boom, I'm in. I rang three people.

- And you felt that, right? You didn't think about that. You just felt straight away, I'm in.

- I pulled out the framework. I started to write and I went, okay, I need some research here. I go, first of all, I need speakers. I ranked three people. They all said, yes. One of those is you. I'm so excited. Jess.

- [Jess] Me too.

- September 14, we're gonna have a good-

- [Jess] Special day.

- Good crack at it. And what an amazing, I think opportunity that is for the gold coast, because last few years, it's been Zoom meeting after Zoom meeting. Let's not not socialise. Let's not get out and-

- Touch.

- Touch, but let's not spend a day on ourselves to really, really improve ourselves. Like let's not spend a whole day on ourselves. Let's do an hour Zoom and then get back into work. So education's super important, but implementation so much more important. I think we'd need that whole day, if not more, but that's something that I went with my gut on and it just happened, boom, boom, boom. So yourself, Ryan Tuckwood, Peter Cox, AKA Coxy, previous podcast episode here on the Proactive Podcast, all said, yes. It's gonna be absolute killer event. That wouldn't have come to fruition here had I not just gone on with my gut.

- Exactly. And look, and I'm sure I can hear it, see it, and your listeners can as well. They can hear how revved up you are about that opportunity.

- [Chris] So revved.

- You just lit up like a Christmas tree.

- [Chris] So revved up.

- That's a gut decision. That's how we feel about gut decisions. How do we feel when we make a safe risk averse or go through my pros and cons list, kind of decision. And I remember when I took a career path, this was 2017 and I moved to Queensland. I knew very clearly what I wanted to be. I had no idea how to do it. I remember sitting on my couch one time as I was in uni. And I thought, all right, Jess, this is a ridiculous, who do you wanna be? Like, what is your dream career? I'm like, well, a lawyer, a psychologist, an interior designer, a teacher. I'd go through so many and I could have done all of those. And so I sat down and I was like in a straw. I was like, just pick something like, what is the dream? Like, what can you see yourself doing? And I just had as close to what I can call it as just like a mental vision that I would be a teacher, but it would be on stage. It wasn't a classroom, which is what I was pursuing at the time. I had no idea. I couldn't have even told you who Tony Robbins is. Never heard of him. Never heard of the word personal development. That's how I know it didn't come from my mind. I was like, this is not a career. And I went and sheepishly told my mom, I don't think this is a career, but I've just had this thought. And she's like, that's the first time you've ever said something to me that I'm like, that is Jess, that is you. And so I spent years trying to pursue it. I like booked a ticket to America. I'm like, I'm gonna go to the Franklin Covey organisation and they're gonna give me a job. And I booked a ticket. I hadn't even had an interview yet with Stephen Covey. And I'm like, I will. I'll find a way or bang on the door. It's like, I was just doing one thing after another to find an opportunity into whatever that vision was and however that looked. And then came to Queensland and I had a woman offer me a job. Nothing that I wanted to do, did not fit anything that I had planned in my mind was what I needed to do. And I had another job that did everything on paper, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. So I had both these job offers. I was supposed to start on Monday at the other job. And I told that lady, I was like, it's not essentially what I wanna do. And she was like, what do you wanna do? I'll create the role. I want you in my organisation. And I went away and I spoke with my husband. I spoke with my parents and I was like, alright, pros and cons. They gave me all of the cons, all of the cons for that job. And I just kept saying, yeah, but what about this, what about this? And they're like, Jess, I think you've already made your decision. And so I went away and I said no to the job that made sense. And I said yes to the job that was essentially a terrible decision. That opened all of the doors to me, all of the doors to the personal development world. I got sent to a Tony Robbins concert and I was like, holy shit, this is an industry. And everything just opened up for me. And so that again is why I'm a strong believer in, yes, you can do the pros and cons and it can make sense in the mind, which can make you feel safe. Cause a mind wants sense, wants familiarity, but you cannot see what it is that your soul sees. And if you open that door to slight Pink Flamingo, there's a beautiful stage right in front of you that you never could have expected. That's what lights people up. That's what turns people on. That's what puts people in fulfilment and passion and purpose. That's living. That's when you're alive. Safety, sure. You're alive. You're not living.

- Entrepreneurship is a interesting title that I don't feel like I deserve the word entrepreneur. I'm not a sailor, basically like sailing the seas, making maps and going where people haven't gone before. There's a lot of people that have gone here before me. And so I prefer the word proactive and that's the name of the methodology. And Stephen Covey, perfect segue. Number one habit in seven habits of highly effective people is to be proactive. Where in your life have you been most proactive and how has that benefited you?

- Can I say the way that I view proactive?

- Yeah, sure.

- The way that I interpret proactive is choosing your response rather than being reactive. When something happens and we're reactive, essentially in that moment, we've lost choice. We're responding from fear. We're responding from trauma. It's a knee jerk reaction. And then later we come back and think, oh yeah, probably shouldn't have done that. Probably shouldn't have said that. Why did I do that? And so there is that like little sweet spot if you're gonna learn to pause before the reaction and choose the response. And I believe to me being proactive is choosing your response. How am I going to respond in this moment? How am I gonna act in this moment? How am I gonna move forward in this moment? What choice am I gonna make? That's claiming your power. That's being empowered when you get to choose. You're not just reactive to life. And I believe for me in answering your question, many again, I do feel that when you master mindset, and when I say master mindset, no one masters mindset. But when we have an understanding in mindset and how the mind works, that opens the door to choosing proactivity, to choosing how we respond and just being able to take that moment and think, okay, here's what's happening. I've got this decision to make, I've got this opportunity to take. And I either say yes or no to the opportunity. And sometimes we should say no. Sometimes the brain says, yes, take it. And the gut's like, oh, close that door. So being able to know what's happening and take a step back and be like, my mind's doing this, my gut's doing this. What will I choose? That I believe is one of my, for whatever reason, my gifts in life, being able to say, what am I going to choose here? And proactively choose my gut. I just gave you that example of when things didn't make sense. So many times, same with my husband. I was like, we're never getting married, let's be honest. Like, we can have some fun, but you just need to understand right now, this isn't going anywhere. for telling this story, he's like stop telling I was a weirdo. But we just didn't make sense in my mind and my picture of what my relationship was gonna be. Yet I felt to pursue any kind of relationship, friendship with him and realised this man ticks all of my boxes, plus the ones I didn't know I needed to have. There is not, and I can say it, full confidence. There is not a better person out there for me. And again, that was gut decision after gut decision. And I personally believe if you can be proactive in choosing your gut, life will change.

- Right. So it wasn't one answer. That's cool. No, that's cool. I found, I compartmentalise things and with being proactive. And oftentimes I feel the pain and go, well, I don't wanna feel that again so I'm gonna be proactive on that. And so therefore I'm somewhat a slow learner because I don't know. I just prefer to go for the pain for some stupid reason.

- It depends how we believe pain to be. A lot of people think pain feels uncomfortable. We label it bad. Versus if that pain that you have to feel temporarily is gonna open the door to what you need, how can that be bad? That can be good. And I feel like a lot of people lose trust in themselves and they lose trust in their gut cause they felt to make a decision. I had a guy come to me one time struggling with depression because he took a big blow in his life. Sort of what you were saying too in 2008. It's like you're following along, you're trucking along, you're blazing your trail. And then all of a sudden something bad happens. And we're like, oh, was I wrong because I felt to make that decision. I felt very strongly to make that decision. I did it and it's caused me pain, basically shit's hit the fan. And so we say, I must have been wrong versus being like you were right. It just didn't give you what you thought you were gonna get and the way that you expected to get it. That's the brain mechanism. It needs to look like this. It has to look in this way. If you pulled apart everything that you learned, the man that you are today because of 2008, because who you were then, who you are now, you'd be like, there was nothing wrong with that. There was nothing bad about that. And I believe that really rewriting that paradigm, that good things equal good feelings, bad things equal bad feelings. I mean like no, good things can feel bad too. And bad things can feel good too. And when we actually get rid of that paradigm, we can start trusting ourselves more and some good decisions will bring pain and challenge. And that's exactly what you need to be the person that you're gonna be proud of.

- [Chris] Yeah.

- Sorry I cut you off.

- No, you finished on a perfect word. Proud. I'm so proud of the person I am. And I think more people should be proud of who they are. There's always something to be proud of and yeah, made a bucket load of mistakes. Somewhere along that line I think I hoped that I'd made them all, but I know I haven't. And some of those beauties, those hugely painful moments in my later years now, I have totally taken on board, owned it and gone, there's a lesson to be learned here, and I'm so glad I learned it. In writing my book, there was a part missing and I didn't know that it was missing until I felt the pain associated with that point. And that allowed me to finish my book on a high. And I've got goosebumps. And I think that's something that has, I don't know, helped guide me and in life and those best decisions that I've ever made, the decision to start an agency, go full tilt into an agency when I'd sort of dabbled with it on the side through different contracts and employment and all the rest of it. But the day that I decided that I was going to, that's it, I'm going full tilt into this. Oh my God, I was the most alive I feel like I'd ever been at that time. And that's exactly how I feel in these decisions when I go with the gut. And when I tell people when they go, mm, it's like, nah, you don't understand.

- I'm a fire.

- Yeah. You just don't understand. And here it is. And then when I go boom, that's the proactive plan, this is how it's gonna play out. And this is what it's gonna do. And that's what it's gonna lead to. And they go, ah, something... I'm rereading Stephen Covey's book at the moment. I love it so much. And in the start of it, in the intro, he talks about paradigm shifts and how important they are and how he talks about this moment on a train where this gentleman's just got his head down. He looks as seriously disconnected from the rest of the world. And his kids are playing up on the train and annoying everyone. And he says to this guy, Hey mate, did you know that your kids are playing up and annoying everyone? And he said, yeah. The guy says, yeah, we've just come from the hospital and they just saw their mother die. And so, yeah, I suppose they're just letting that pain out in whatever way they know how. And Steven goes, oh, I'm so sorry to hear that. He didn't know what that guy knew and those kids knew. And so he had to have a paradigm shift in order to understand it and get on the same page. When we go to people for help and they say, no, it's important for us to be able to explain it. Not just, I just feel this. So I think that's the implementer. We have to get to that stage before I think we go run off and start telling everybody stuff.

- Yes.

- I've done that too. Like, this is how it's gonna play out or this is the strategy, not even how. This is the overarching strategy of what this is going to do for me or for us. And then once that's explained, then watch the reaction.

- Absolutely. I love what you said there, Chris, paradigm shifts, cause people understand that if you're doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result, the quote is that's the definition of insanity. The only reason we do the same things over and over again is because our belief that that is what is going to work. So to me, I'm like, if you continue to believe the same things and expect different results in your life, again, that's a definition of insanity. We have to be open to challenging our beliefs and challenging our paradigms because they may have been great because they may have gotten you this far. If you're having struggles trying to go to the next level, we actually have to unlearn some of what we learned before. I think about in the way that a baby, when a baby starts crawling, they rock first till they can get the strength in their legs and their arms, their forearms to kind of sit up in that way and crawl along. And that's fantastic. That's essential. They're building muscles and strength and motor neurons, all of those sorts of things that are important. But when it comes to walking, they actually have to unlearn certain things to be able to prop themselves up. Rather than crawling on their knees, now they've gotta walk on their feet. And so every step is essential and we are learning something along the way and we can take some good things with us, but we also have to be flexible enough to unlearn some of the things that got us here, but can't get us there. And like we said at the start, mindset's fantastic and it's gotten you so far, mind over matter, that strength and that resilience. And is there a part now where we actually have to unlearn that little bit that means, that makes us think the mind is everything, and actually incorporate the gut and incorporate the soul, incorporate emotions and feelings too. We have to be open to challenging, shattering, getting rid of some of our belief systems and paradigms to get to the next level.

- Fantastic love that, Jess. That's a really great note to finish on. I very much look forward to seeing you on stage at Pink Flamingo.

- I'll be dressed a little differently than pink Flamingo.

- I dunno if I will. I dunno. I dunno guys. Pink Flamingo might bring out the Flamboyant to me.

- That's true.

- The jazz hands.

- So Jess, how do people follow you for starters? Where are you at on socials? And do you have a website?

- I do. So the website is Jesscameron.com. Social media, Instagram business pages, @thatsJessCameron, and Facebook, same thing.

- Great. Guys, keep following Jess. She does love speaking on stage. I didn't get into the backstory as to why, but maybe there's another opportunity for that. Please keep an eye on our socials, MeMedia. We're across Instagram, et cetera. Or you can hit our website, Memedia.com. You will be absolutely advertising this up and coming event for you Gold coaster, Queenslanders, Northern New South Wales people. Hey, fly in from Sydney if you like. This is gonna be a rocking event on September 14th, 2022 at Pink Flamingo. Stay tuned. It's gonna be hot. You should not miss it. And I'm not even talking about my topic. I'm talking about other people that are speaking.

- Just the energy in the room, being around people that are alive and on fire, how are you not gonna feel more alive and on fire yourself?

- That's right. And those people in that room, I think are gonna be the people that really want to be those game changers, those trailblazers and be proactive and make decisions with their gut. Like these are the moments that really light up and can be catalyst, major catalyst for change. So keep watching. Thanks for watching Proactive Podcast. My name's Chris Hogan. I'll see you next time.